Expedition Kayak

[pflyman]

I am not new to Folbot. I have been a satisfied GII owner for approximately 10 years. Locally, I use a home-built, skin-on-frame baidarka when my intent is to go fast. When the weather is up or I need storage, I use the GII- almost exclusively in a solo configuration. I am a camper and fisherman and enjoy wilderness expeditions. I have taken the GII to Prince of Wales Island (AK), the upper Missouri (MT), and northern Manitoba. The GII has been a real workhorse, and the stability and storage have been a real plus. I am getting older. Until forced to give it up, I have no intention of abandoning my wilderness expeditions. I am considering going with something lighter, like the Cooper. This summer on my trip to Grass River Provincial Park in Manitoba, I had to modify my trip to avoid several short portages because I wasn't excited about toting the GII alone in an area I was unfamiliar with. In Alaska, I have had to carry the kayak hundreds of yards to ensure that I was above high tide or to launch at low tide. I am 6'3" and 198 lbs and I would say excellent condition for age 61. Here's my question: I have read a lot of differing opinions on the utility of the Cooper for 1 - 2 week expeditions. I do travel light. Is the Cooper a suitable craft for a solo trip for a person of my size and a trip of this length?

Dave in S. Dakota

[davekru]

I'd say yup. You will need to pack light and compact, however. Your style may be a bit cramped after having the luxury of all that space in the G II.

Loading the Cooper for expedition use will demand careful planning and float bags which can stay high, perhaps cable tied to the frames, uninflated, and inflated after packup is completed. This will hold things in place while maintaining optimum flotation. And, if you day trip from camp, you'll still have the flotatin you need, in place and ready to go.

Definitely get the keel strips and apply them first thing.

You might also dialog with Wanda and see what weight of hypalon they are using these days. My vague memory is that the denier used now may be a bit lighter than what your G II had.

Is there a reason you don't want the Kodiak? It might work for you although you will defintitely need the Tall Man Mod. The Kodiak would be my personal choice for long haul, multiday trips in remote places. It is definitely the toughest Folbot. Not sure how it does for capacity relative to the Cooper. It would be a real squeeze for me, but I outweigh you by 30 lbs. Thirty pounds is a lot of food.

[voyageur]

hi Dave,

this is actually my first post to the forum though I have been reading it and getting great advice for years...I too enjoy wilderness adventures and wanted to say don't rule out a Yukon for your extended trips...I find the open cockpit a great advantage for loading and unloading at portages...and because it's wider at the beam it probably has more initial stability of all Folbots...so stable that I never even use my flotation bags anymore...use the space for additional gear stowing...I slide my tent all the way forward and my sleeping bag all the way aft...my food pack goes up front just under the cockpit and makes a great footrest...my main gear pack goes behind the seat...I use a short ridge-rest on the floor which is a great insulator and then roll it up, tuck it against my air-fom seat for portaging and carry the boat right on my head
of course I'm not as big as you are...5'-8" and 160 lbs and considerably younger...I'm only 60

good luck with your decision
Paul

[pflyman]

Thank you Dave and Paul for your thoughts. Why haven't I chosen a Kodiak or Yukon? My thought process includes the following: Speed, weight, and storage. Speed and weight are self-explanatory. As far as storage is concerned, I ASSUMED that one could access the storage forward and aft in the Cooper more easily via the zippers (please correct me if I am wrong). I was also confused by the following statement, Dave: "...and float bags which can stay high, perhaps cable tied to the frames." I would have thought that if one could load through the zippered areas, the dry bags could just rest on the frame.

Dave

[PeteS]

After the Cooper is assembled it is difficult to put anything through the zippers. The sponsons need to be deflated, deck bar is in the way, etc. Easier to just slide stuff in through the cockpit. What folks are saying about the float bags is that you slide them in, deflated, on top of your equipment, then inflate them. That does two things, it keeps the float bag high in the boat (all the better to hold the craft upright if flooded), and also holds the equipment firmly to the bottom of the boat (prevents loss in the case of an upset). You still need a "ditty bag" in the cockpit with stuff you need while the paddling (safety equipment, whistle, snacks, camera, etc), plus a water bladder behind the seat.

[davekru]

After the Cooper is assembled it is difficult to put anything through the zippers. The sponsons need to be deflated, deck bar is in the way, etc. Easier to just slide stuff in through the cockpit.

Yup. The zippers are cumbersome ... and you have to release the coaming, also. Loading through the cockpit is the way to go.

What folks are saying about the float bags is that you slide them in, deflated, on top of your equipment, then inflate them. That does two things, it keeps the float bag high in the boat (all the better to hold the craft upright if flooded), and also holds the equipment firmly to the bottom of the boat (prevents loss in the case of an upset).

That's where the flotation goes, all right, but if you have quite a bit of gear (as I usually do on an overnight), it can be tricky ... no very difficult ... to engineer a floppy flexible bag into that space. For that reason, I usually cable-tie the corners of my flotation to frame intersections, and add an extension to the inflation tube so that the bag stays high, out of the way, as I pack the boat. When I'm done, I inflate each bag. This provides some flotation ... more when the compartment is almost empty ... and helps trap the gear in plae so it does not shift around. Loose gear in the cockpit is an entrapment hazard.

[Rogue Paddler]

Dave, I thought I would throw in my ten cents....probably worth two with inflation! If you've been used to a GII a Cooper is going to be a bit of a shock after all that roominess in the GII. I would highly recommend actually sitting in a Cooper before you commit to that kayak. The roominess of a Yukon is much closer to the GII than a Cooper is, and I don't think a Yukon would be that much slower than one person paddling a GII. The people who have Coopers love them, and I've had one and I was surprised by the narrowness and lack of room in the cockpit, in fact I found it somewhat claustrophobic! (Sounds funny coming from someone who volunteered for submarines....and fortunately didn't get accepted.....whew!) The close confines are why you might want to find somebody with one and who would allow you to paddle it or at least sit in it, and if you don't love it find somebody with a Yukon to try. Good luck.
David in Santa Monica
Yukon Exp, Kodiak Exp, and Citibot

[pflyman]

At the rate I am going I could stretch this discussion out until I am too old to make a decision. I accept your arguments about the Cooper for my needs. Room would be a problem. For speed, I will continue to defer to my 17', 32 lb Baidarka. Now, if you will be so kind, I am hearing Yukon and Kodiak. Once again, my immediate reaction is the Kodiak because I am drawn to the length and beam relating to speed... And tough according to Dave K. That toughness, I assume is due to the smaller cockpit relative to the Yukon; therefore, the Yukon might be the preferred choice due to ease of packing. The lesser length and weight would also make it easier to tote. On last summer's trip to Grass R. Provicial park, I suspect that would have allowed me to choose a different return route- one that included several short portages. I was NOT going to do that with the GII! They have identical payloads according to the specifications, so I am open to arguments for or against either of these two. It would be great to test drive whatever I am looking at, but I don't see myself getting to SC any time in the near future.

Once again, thanks for your input.

[PeteS]

One of the forum members posted a few pictures on how to pack a Cooper (sorry I don't remember who...check in please). If you are going to portage, the Cooper can be carried with one hand and packs in one bag...kinda nice. I have a Sporty that weighs in the 60+ lb range and humping that thing across portages in Quetico Prov Park was no easy chore.
I thought the pictures were pretty cool, so I kept them. Here ya go.

[davekru]

pflyman wrote: Now, if you will be so kind, I am hearing Yukon and Kodiak. Once again, my immediate reaction is the Kodiak because I am drawn to the length and beam relating to speed... And tough according to Dave K. That toughness, I assume is due to the smaller cockpit relative to the Yukon; therefore, the Yukon might be the preferred choice due to ease of packing. The lesser length and weight would also make it easier to tote.

With your leg length, the Yukon is a better choice, and probably tough enough. The reason the Kodiak is tougher? 5 frames versus the three in the Yukon.

[PeteS]

The Kodiak is the closest to the old Folbot Sporty but a LOT lighter with the new materials and tubular frames. You can also SAIL a Kodiak, something you can't do with a Cooper.

[voyageur]

Pflyman,
I had the same dilemma deciding between a Kodiak and a Yukon…the Kodiak is a bit tougher because of the 2 additional frames as Davekru mentions…and a bit faster due to the length and beam as you mentioned…I finally chose a Yukon based on weight and ease of loading and unloading gear…I do a lot of portaging on my trips and never wanted to disassemble my boat for every carry…even partially…to me, the zippers on the Kodiak are for ease of assembly only and still will require some disassembly to use for loading and unloading…the Yukon with its larger cockpit is a breeze to load and unload and as for carrying the assembled boat on portages…well, 10 lbs more is 10 lbs more…I often take trips with buddies who have hardshells and as for speed, I have never had trouble keeping up with them…in fact my Yukon tracks better with no rudder than theirs do with rudders…and it is plenty tough enough

Good luck,
Paul

[MichaelLomas]

MikeKayakThin.jpg (83.75 KiB) Viewed 344 times

I'd just like to put in my ten cents worth for the Aleut - 12-foot, 137 pounds.

I have had one for about six years and am always pleased with the ample storage capacity and ease in portaging.

I weigh 16 lbs., and am 5'10" - and am very, but not extremely, fit at 75.

My typical multi-day tripping is on the Rideau Canal and I go distances of about 150 km (90 miles) to 200 km (120 miles).

Often I pack the Aleut in the two Folbot bags, add my camping/fishing gear, and sling it on a Greyhound bus and quite often don't get challenged to pay for being one bag over the limit.

I use either a Prime carrier (with its inflatable wheels) or a stern strap-on carrier. The advantage of using the Primex is that one can portage in one trip - adding the backpack/ bag gear to the kayak when it is up on the carrier frame. And the Rideau Canal has about 15 locks to portage through. And yes, there's loads of room to stow the collapsible carrier.

Sure, the Aleut is slower than the Cooper - but it is much more stable and easier to turn in tight situations.

So I say give the Aleut some consideration.

[Dickc]

I keep hearing on this forum about how the Kodiak is the toughest Folbot because of the extra ribs. I think for most people that extra toughness is mostly theoretical and will never come into play. All Folbots are tough and all new Folbots come with a lifetime warantee.

I realize that you don't want to use the lifetime warantee when you're 50 miles from the nearest civilization or cell phone signal but aside from a few people who post on this forum how many folbot owners will ever get into that situation. And even those who do get miles from civilization, what are you planning to do that will break a Yukon or Aleut? You shouldn't use any Folbot in Whitewater because the longerons don't do well when smashed against rocks by a strong current. Buy a plastic whitewater boat for that. Please note, I said SMASHED against rocks by a STRONG current. (The Kodiak has the same longerons as all the other Folbots.) Paddleing onto a rock or stump shouldn't be a problem. I've done it lots of times in my GII with no damage.

So I ask again what are you planing to do? Perhaps surfing on breaking ocean waves onto the beach? Get a plastic sit on top for surfing big breakers onto the beach. You'll be able to separate yourself from the boat faster and have slighly less chance of breaking you neck when your head gets pounded into the sand with the boat on top of you.

Maybe you're going to harass a 20 foot great white shark or an Orca or a crocodile? Yeah, get it good and mad at you and see how those extra Kodiak ribs help.

I've never heard of any Folbot breaking and leaving the paddler stranded in any kind of reasonable use so if you can figure out a way to break a Folbot that the extra Kodiak ribs might prevent, go ahead and buy a Kodiak. If not, forget the theoretical extra Kodiak stength and buy the boat that best fits your needs. Remember those extra Kodiak ribs add weight to the boat to give you extra strengh that you may not need. I've seen people agonize over this decision. Which Boat to buy. Each one has pros and cons but which ever boat you buy YOU WILL LOVE IT.

You will also find that the other boats are less stable than a GII but after about 15 minutes paddling any one of them you'll be used to it and it won't be a factor.

So pick the boat that you think will be best for you. Then Paddle, enjoy, repeat.

Dickc

PS We skied yesterday, drove 65 miles and down 3,000 feet to Denver today and biked 33 miles. It was 80 Degrees. The ice won't melt on the lake for another month so we can't paddle yet but life is good.

[davekru]

DickC and I are in agreement about boat choice, for the most part: agonizing over boat choice is an easy trap to fall into. However, we choose different forms of rhetoric.

My slant on the "5 ribs or 3 ribs" choice is close to his: those two extra ribs are heavy and unneeded in normal use. It would be a rare adventurer who found the extra two ribs made the difference between boat survival or failure. And, inevitably, it is an unexpected enclounter with a surf zone or an unseen rock that caused the problem.

Hundreds of people have taken their Folbots to wild places, down rivers, even, across small surf zones even, and done fine. Now and then a temporary repair was needed, an easy proposition with a couple thumb-diameter branches and duct tape, or maybe a rivet or two.

If you want the sense of security of the strongest Folbot made, go for the Kodiak. The Yukon is a lighter, more versatile boat, easier to fit, and has much more room in the cockpit. I'd take either one every wild place I have been, from the shores of the Queen Charlottes, past the outside of Vancouver Island, down the easy sections of the Green River in Utah, and ashore on the beaches of the Sea of Cortez. Folbots work fine in marshes, lakes, easy streams and small placid rivers, and in lily pond environments. The choice is yours.